So I publish a nontraditional wedding blog that's been around for decades, and one of my favorite things is sharing ren faire weddings because they contradict so much of what people like to say about hotness and relationships.
Let me explain: many of the folks having ren faire weddings were not what some would call conventionally attractive, but it was clear they were having so much sex. The weddings were all bi/pan/poly with the bride having 2 girlfriends and the 5'4" groom having an elf on the side and the wedding receptions having sex tents and ok fine I'm exaggerating a bit for effect but only just barely! My editors used to joke that based on the ren faire weddings we saw, the folks that some people dismissed as "ugly nerds" were having wayyyy more fun and a LOT more sex than the rest of us -- by many magnitudes.
So whenever people try to talk about having to be young, hot, fit, whatEVER to get laid, I'm just like y'all. Have you never been to a ren faire?? Your misconceptions about what it takes to get a date are woefully wrong. You don't need abs or a perfect jaw line.... you need social skills, bravery, and emotional flexibility.
I've been saying it for years, if you look at the bears and their social circles, they all look the same. Which, in turn, makes it so so exclusionary, like you said.
i feel like the last sentence of rejection, the one that says (spoiler) that you need to accept the rejection to be truly rejected, acknowledges the input and outputs you mention and that self worth lies within the individual and not the system
I also found it an interesting take on use of steroids and the violence it can cause not just to yourself but to your family (young versions of yourself in some way.)
Everyone should go and watch "What U Missed While U were popular" from Crazy Ex Girlfriend, it sums up the reality that not only hot/popular people get laid!
I feel like there's some kind of meta-commentary to be had about the fact that Demi Moore's character in Substance is supposed to be 50. Demi Moore does not look 50. She's a very attractive woman in her early 60s who looks like... a very attractive woman in her early 60s (source: I'm in my early 50s and wake up next to a woman in her early 50s every day). But since I haven't seen the movie, I'm not sure which way that meta-commentary would cut, beyond "even in a piece critiquing a undue fear of aging, Demi Moore is cast in a manner that significantly understates her age."
"(I’d love to hear the incel explanation for why people are attracted to “Rat Boys”)."
The fact that the Discourse voices confusion over women being attracted to men as grimy and wretched as Timothee Chalemet and Jeremy Allen White is not exactly disproof of incel ideas about female attraction being hyper-selective, lol. Their ideas are wrong! But this specific meme sharpens rather than dulls their fears.
What's actually being said in a lot of these cases is just that people like distinctive looking faces, which I've always felt was suppressed knowledge (I never understood why people voiced attraction to such *boring* looking actors when I was growing up), but like, isn't exactly body positivity lol, particularly when followed by a list of today's unrealistic sex symbols. It's like saying Anya Taylor Joy is kinda weird looking, so you should be confident too. Like, sure, but, c'mon.
I *do* think that this can be a counter to specific incel obsessions - nose or jaw shape, etc. - because it highlights how much vibe matters, and how "weird" features can actually be an asset. It also highlights that attraction is way more complicated than inputs and outputs, when it's not treated as weird - you're attracted to people for strange ineffable reasons so will always be surprised by it some of the time. So I don't disagree that the phenomenon chafes against incel expectations. Treating it as a phenomenon is what I see as reinforcing them.
"People have claimed that by sexualizing their bodies, the movie is perpetuating the same system it seeks to take down." There's that sequence of the young!protag doing her fitness routine which highlights the objectification of it all, but I remember watching it ... uncomfortably. There's a Jenny Nicholson review of 50 Shades where she says the movie failed to be sexy to her - the camera closeups were *so* close that everything just turned into meat. That's how I felt during that scene. It was objectifying to the degree that all I could see was object. Expanse of flesh, not thigh. Maybe that's just where my head was watching the film, but I wasn't titillated.
More on topic, I've seen a couple essays recently grappling with the way race made someone feel they were "ugly" to Society. Obviously gleaned a lot trying to empathize, but when I inevitably find a picture of the person I tend to stop and go, "But you're hot??" The huge problem underlying incel logic is that Conventional Attractiveness is the lowest-common-denominator, *not* the thing that is "most attractive to most people." But we are bombarded with lowest-common-denominator content, and with insults and rejection, and we don't have access to the minds of the thousands of people who look at us each day and think "...Nice." I certainly don't believe they're out there, even after writing this comment pointing out that I am one of those people for many other doubters.
Great piece! This idea of inputs and outputs, to me, feels like a world-model that takes the scientific method and goes on to make an idol out of it - a sort of reductionistic model of the human being, of their capacity for love, etc.
So I publish a nontraditional wedding blog that's been around for decades, and one of my favorite things is sharing ren faire weddings because they contradict so much of what people like to say about hotness and relationships.
Let me explain: many of the folks having ren faire weddings were not what some would call conventionally attractive, but it was clear they were having so much sex. The weddings were all bi/pan/poly with the bride having 2 girlfriends and the 5'4" groom having an elf on the side and the wedding receptions having sex tents and ok fine I'm exaggerating a bit for effect but only just barely! My editors used to joke that based on the ren faire weddings we saw, the folks that some people dismissed as "ugly nerds" were having wayyyy more fun and a LOT more sex than the rest of us -- by many magnitudes.
So whenever people try to talk about having to be young, hot, fit, whatEVER to get laid, I'm just like y'all. Have you never been to a ren faire?? Your misconceptions about what it takes to get a date are woefully wrong. You don't need abs or a perfect jaw line.... you need social skills, bravery, and emotional flexibility.
The Substance-ification of gay men... Say it louder!!
your brief and very insightful analysis made me want to watch the movie.
that means a lot to me! it’s kind of insane but ultimately says a lot about society and womanhood
I've been saying it for years, if you look at the bears and their social circles, they all look the same. Which, in turn, makes it so so exclusionary, like you said.
omg love that you brought in rejection into this! another great one, thanks for the shoutout :)
i feel like the last sentence of rejection, the one that says (spoiler) that you need to accept the rejection to be truly rejected, acknowledges the input and outputs you mention and that self worth lies within the individual and not the system
I also found it an interesting take on use of steroids and the violence it can cause not just to yourself but to your family (young versions of yourself in some way.)
Everyone should go and watch "What U Missed While U were popular" from Crazy Ex Girlfriend, it sums up the reality that not only hot/popular people get laid!
I feel like there's some kind of meta-commentary to be had about the fact that Demi Moore's character in Substance is supposed to be 50. Demi Moore does not look 50. She's a very attractive woman in her early 60s who looks like... a very attractive woman in her early 60s (source: I'm in my early 50s and wake up next to a woman in her early 50s every day). But since I haven't seen the movie, I'm not sure which way that meta-commentary would cut, beyond "even in a piece critiquing a undue fear of aging, Demi Moore is cast in a manner that significantly understates her age."
"(I’d love to hear the incel explanation for why people are attracted to “Rat Boys”)."
The fact that the Discourse voices confusion over women being attracted to men as grimy and wretched as Timothee Chalemet and Jeremy Allen White is not exactly disproof of incel ideas about female attraction being hyper-selective, lol. Their ideas are wrong! But this specific meme sharpens rather than dulls their fears.
What's actually being said in a lot of these cases is just that people like distinctive looking faces, which I've always felt was suppressed knowledge (I never understood why people voiced attraction to such *boring* looking actors when I was growing up), but like, isn't exactly body positivity lol, particularly when followed by a list of today's unrealistic sex symbols. It's like saying Anya Taylor Joy is kinda weird looking, so you should be confident too. Like, sure, but, c'mon.
I *do* think that this can be a counter to specific incel obsessions - nose or jaw shape, etc. - because it highlights how much vibe matters, and how "weird" features can actually be an asset. It also highlights that attraction is way more complicated than inputs and outputs, when it's not treated as weird - you're attracted to people for strange ineffable reasons so will always be surprised by it some of the time. So I don't disagree that the phenomenon chafes against incel expectations. Treating it as a phenomenon is what I see as reinforcing them.
"People have claimed that by sexualizing their bodies, the movie is perpetuating the same system it seeks to take down." There's that sequence of the young!protag doing her fitness routine which highlights the objectification of it all, but I remember watching it ... uncomfortably. There's a Jenny Nicholson review of 50 Shades where she says the movie failed to be sexy to her - the camera closeups were *so* close that everything just turned into meat. That's how I felt during that scene. It was objectifying to the degree that all I could see was object. Expanse of flesh, not thigh. Maybe that's just where my head was watching the film, but I wasn't titillated.
More on topic, I've seen a couple essays recently grappling with the way race made someone feel they were "ugly" to Society. Obviously gleaned a lot trying to empathize, but when I inevitably find a picture of the person I tend to stop and go, "But you're hot??" The huge problem underlying incel logic is that Conventional Attractiveness is the lowest-common-denominator, *not* the thing that is "most attractive to most people." But we are bombarded with lowest-common-denominator content, and with insults and rejection, and we don't have access to the minds of the thousands of people who look at us each day and think "...Nice." I certainly don't believe they're out there, even after writing this comment pointing out that I am one of those people for many other doubters.
Great piece! This idea of inputs and outputs, to me, feels like a world-model that takes the scientific method and goes on to make an idol out of it - a sort of reductionistic model of the human being, of their capacity for love, etc.
Wrote about this here - thought you might like this: https://www.decentralizedfiction.com/p/the-incel-as-a-literary-subject
Great input on the beauty industry.
Nailed.