I think about this a lot, especially as a lot of (white) women are wearing scarves that are essentially a dupatta with their wedding or other formal dresses. I see a lot of south Asian women saying that it's appropriation and am inclined to believe them. But i also wonder when it is okay to have influences from other cultures in fashion and where the line is for appropriation. I can see where Billie goes off the rails -- grills, chains, blaccent... -- but scarves becoming popular fashion, for example, is blurrier to me.
Hi! The issue between scarves/dupattas is really the way they are being worn & styled, without proper credit. There are ways of wearing/draping the dupatta that *are* specific to South Asian culture. I often also notice that it’s not just the dupatta that’s being worn- they wear Indian style suits, bindis, etc along with it as though it is just a “look”, ignoring the cultural context and history behind it.
In the case of only wearing a scarf/dupatta with a Western formal dress, I think it’s important to note that this is something done in India as well and has been for a long time, but this is often overlooked and said to be a new thing done by people in the West (i.e. they didn’t coin this trend either, even though many act like it).
The other thing is a ton of South Asian culture gets appropriated so often that it becomes blurrier and blurrier (I’d compare it to how people are claiming AAVE is just “internet language”, when it is not). For example, yoga becoming just a form of physical exercise/trend instead of first and foremost, a spiritual practice (there is a lot to be said here alone tbh).
I think there’s some nuance missing Black peoples using Japanese names though in that cultural exchange (not appropriation) is the term for when marginalized people borrow from other marginalized groups. Ideally it would be two way. And it has been in Japan. Japanese rapping can be great.
Am uneven power dynamic is what makes something appropriation.
Cultural Appropriation is the very worst example of liberal manners that do more damage than good. It's a form of segregation, and it makes no sense. At its logical conclusion, you would disallow people from speaking foreign languages even when those languages are needed to communicate.
Cultures are at their best when they mix, and anyone who complains because Billie Eilish wore some clothes or a white person cooked a curry makes the world a smaller, less integrated place.
The issue isn’t people making curry. The issue is the wholesale disavowal of cultural identity and legacy in favor of placating the cultural majority in yet another way. Reducing it to logical fallacies like “speaking languages needed to communicate” obfuscates the real hurt and diminishes the conversation in favor of a point I already made: not everything is for everyone. Speaking a language in a business setting or for pleasure is not the same thing as co-opting language for your own use and pretending it’s yours.
Thank you for proving my point, at the very least!
It's telling that you have softened your position with the slightest of pushback. "The issue isn't people making curry", when one of your examples was people making curry.
To answer your main points, nobody is disavowing a cultural identity by embracing parts of that cultural identity. If I "pretend" and use AAVE, it does not stop anyone who is purportedly more authentic using AAVE. It's not co-opting anything. It is petty for groups to accuse each other of stealing what are nothing more than thoughts and ideas.
There's something deeply conservative and right wing about not enjoying people who are different to you enjoying the things you enjoy. I am serious when I say this idea of "cultural appropriation" that has spread amongst so called progressives is a kind of segregation.
This is an unpopular position, but that's because in WEIRD countries, conservatism is on the rise even in progressive spheres.
The issue is not people making curry. The women in this post are wearing traditional Indian clothing and jewelry while monetizing their marriages and housework for other white Americans. They’re not appreciating the food, they’re making money off the fact they married someone who isn’t white and offering it up to the internet. Another logical fallacy. It’s telling that you took a day to respond with basically the exact same poorly thought out argument that actually, POC are conservative for not wanting white Americans to monetize off cultures that don’t belong to them.
It doesn't matter that white women dress up in Sari and make Indian food for TikTok views, because nothing is lost.
Meanwhile, "Cultural Appropriation" is usually a force for good. One of your commentators mentioned Yoga, and it's worth noting that Indian Yogic practice generally involved sitting down and meditating. Modern Yoga is built on those practices, but also includes a number of stretches and stances developed by Scandinavians. It's a true merging of cultures, and we're better off for it.
It may suit Hindutva voices to pretend that Yoga is Indian Only, and mall gym yoga classes are an affront, but these are arguments that quickly tip into nationalism.
Cultural Appropriation is a form of segregation, and as a society we are worse off because of it.
The line of cultural appropriation vs. appreciation has always been difficult for me to understand. From your responses/comments, it feels like you are trying to say that the line falls at monetization. The article doesn't quite feel like it expresses this...maybe you struggle to draw the line cleanly as well (it is a subjective question after all...I think?).
Is Billie dressing/talking like that because she wants to be 'cool' and it will improve her public image? Or is she doing it because she looks up to people who dress and talk like that and wants to be more like them? If Big Joe embraced her copy-cat as flattery through imitation would it be better? Would it matter less if she wasn't famous? I don't know.
Regardless, excellent article as always. Keep it up!
I feel like when trying to talk about, assess, or understand harm, it’s helpful to be specific and to approach the question with a deliberative rather than decisive mindset, especially when the harm in question is not entirely physical/material and is at least in part social, emotional, or psychological - and when the harm being discussed is being done to a group that is broader than the people actively engaged in that discussion. People who are similar and identify with one another in some ways can still have very different experiences of, perspectives on, and responses to an action - fir each person that is going to be effected by so many factors. In some cases it might be more effective/possible to participate in and further a diologue or discourse that will be ongoing than it is to make definitive judgements and determinations about what kind of things are and are not ok. Norms change and context also matters. Ideas and experiences of race, minoritization, culture, identity, and power not only vary from person to person - but also change over time and are effected by nuances of place and intersectionality. It matters who is appropriating what, in what context and in what way. All of these specifics inform that
Have you read Appropriate: A Provocation by Paisley Rekdal? It's the most nuanced & thoughtful examination of cultural appropriation that I've encountered in the many years I've been following discussions on the topic. It isn't (and doesn't pretend to be) the final word on the matter, but it productively complicates the reductive takes that tend to dominate the discussion.
The white women claiming Indian food as their "niche", the irony is too much, and the way they defend themselves, just wow. Thank you for making me laugh this morning, that was funny.
My culture, if I identify by ancestors in addition to environment is this:
Native Floridian
Irish
Czech
Russian
French
Appalachian (my father's family)
Poverty- projects, trailer parks
Some of these labels/identifiers don't have much meaning to me because I was not immersed in said culture (French, Czech, Russian), I just know that my people came from those places. So is that my culture if I have no tie to it?
What do we mean when we say "culture"?
Probably, for me, the most defining group I associated with growing up was Mormons, followed by Mudicians and alcoholics. Are these my culture?
I might still identify as "culturally Mormon", but I'm about as devout as the women on Secret Lives of Mormon Wives.
I was raised in the projects. So I was immersed in "black culture". Does that make me black? Hint: I'm not. Or is the culture just the culture of Poverty?
Yes, white people have European ancestors, mostly. But many Americans (regardless of race) have no ties to their ancestors.
We are cultural mutts.
It's not necessarily a bad thing.
But I think it *might* be why we cling strongly to other cultures, looking for somewhere or something to belong to. Idk.
I wonder about this a lot. Like, I get the issue with white celebrities doing what basically feels like cultural cosplay while not mentioning sources.
But with the general population it’s less clear… like, I recently discovered I really like African wax print dresses. The patterns are amazing and the cuts are flattering on chunky girls like me. It’s definitely not ‘my culture’ though. But I am also not pretending it is… It still feels like weird territory. Like, both appreciation and appropriation are a real thing, the question is where you put the line… at financial exploitation? That makes sense. But people just trying to engage with a different culture… it’s shadier.
I wonder if Americans appropriate culture because we don't actually have one cultural identity as a country. We are a melting pot, an amalgamation of many cultures. I think this applies to white people specifically 🤔 We don't have a culture of our own, so we seek out and "perform" cultures that appeal to us. I don't know if this is good or bad, I just know we do it.
I'm not from the US, but there ARE US cultures... So many different Native American ones, African-American ones... White people brought their cultures with them and sometimes lost them but Italian-Americans seem to still have ties to their origins. WASP have a culture too: mainly religious!
Read my comment again, that is basically what I said. We have so many cultures that mix together, so we don't have one specific culture. I wasn't implying a void of culture, I used the term "amalgamation "- a mixture, a melting pot.
I wonder if you also think that Americans don't have an accent? White people do have a culture of their own. If you can't see a culture it's because that's your culture.
White people do not have a culture. Whiteness is not an identity. That’s like saying “brown people” have a culture. Now, Irish-Americans have a culture. So do Swedish-, Norwegian-, French, etc. There is regional culture (Appalachian, Chicago, Boston, SoCal etc.) But “white” in and of itself is not a cultural identity. I am white and I have plenty of culture to access—raised Irish Catholic in the Rust Belt, a specific culture with its own traditions, music, social norms and even dress. If white people learned about and embraced their cultural heritage beyond “white,” they will have plenty to access without appropriating.
have been reflecting about what you wrote here (the Cohen example is new to me! I didn’t know anything about this)
I’m curious if you would make a distinction between artistic work that draws on cultural traditions outside the creator’s own (as an example, let’s say the film score by Ludwig Goransson of blues for the film Sinners) and taking on another culture as one’s identity (example of a white woman wearing a bindi)
What do you make of the way young (white/European) British people/teenagers adopt black British and/or American dialect? From my observations the peak of their emulation/copycatting is mid-teens, and then it fades when they enter the workforce.
I think about this a lot, especially as a lot of (white) women are wearing scarves that are essentially a dupatta with their wedding or other formal dresses. I see a lot of south Asian women saying that it's appropriation and am inclined to believe them. But i also wonder when it is okay to have influences from other cultures in fashion and where the line is for appropriation. I can see where Billie goes off the rails -- grills, chains, blaccent... -- but scarves becoming popular fashion, for example, is blurrier to me.
Also, there ARE differences between dupattas and scarves. Here are some links I think are good:
1) Brief history on dupattas + traditional styling: https://www.lashkaraa.com/blogs/lashkaraa/what-is-a-dupatta#
2) A surprisingly tame Reddit thread (I like the comment from duskbun, personally): https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/1k5wnc8/cmv_the_whole_scandinavian_scarf_trend_isnt/
And yes: I do know actual Scandinavian scarves exist lol but they are different from dupattas!
I hope this was helpful haha
It is and I appreciate it!
Hi! The issue between scarves/dupattas is really the way they are being worn & styled, without proper credit. There are ways of wearing/draping the dupatta that *are* specific to South Asian culture. I often also notice that it’s not just the dupatta that’s being worn- they wear Indian style suits, bindis, etc along with it as though it is just a “look”, ignoring the cultural context and history behind it.
In the case of only wearing a scarf/dupatta with a Western formal dress, I think it’s important to note that this is something done in India as well and has been for a long time, but this is often overlooked and said to be a new thing done by people in the West (i.e. they didn’t coin this trend either, even though many act like it).
The other thing is a ton of South Asian culture gets appropriated so often that it becomes blurrier and blurrier (I’d compare it to how people are claiming AAVE is just “internet language”, when it is not). For example, yoga becoming just a form of physical exercise/trend instead of first and foremost, a spiritual practice (there is a lot to be said here alone tbh).
I know it’s been a bit but I also came across this really wonderful substack that explains the difference very well: https://open.substack.com/pub/readwritewear/p/the-quiet-erasure-of-cultural-fashion?r=453j0m&utm_medium=ios
Love your take on White Lotus.
I think there’s some nuance missing Black peoples using Japanese names though in that cultural exchange (not appropriation) is the term for when marginalized people borrow from other marginalized groups. Ideally it would be two way. And it has been in Japan. Japanese rapping can be great.
Am uneven power dynamic is what makes something appropriation.
Cultural Appropriation is the very worst example of liberal manners that do more damage than good. It's a form of segregation, and it makes no sense. At its logical conclusion, you would disallow people from speaking foreign languages even when those languages are needed to communicate.
Cultures are at their best when they mix, and anyone who complains because Billie Eilish wore some clothes or a white person cooked a curry makes the world a smaller, less integrated place.
The issue isn’t people making curry. The issue is the wholesale disavowal of cultural identity and legacy in favor of placating the cultural majority in yet another way. Reducing it to logical fallacies like “speaking languages needed to communicate” obfuscates the real hurt and diminishes the conversation in favor of a point I already made: not everything is for everyone. Speaking a language in a business setting or for pleasure is not the same thing as co-opting language for your own use and pretending it’s yours.
Thank you for proving my point, at the very least!
It's telling that you have softened your position with the slightest of pushback. "The issue isn't people making curry", when one of your examples was people making curry.
To answer your main points, nobody is disavowing a cultural identity by embracing parts of that cultural identity. If I "pretend" and use AAVE, it does not stop anyone who is purportedly more authentic using AAVE. It's not co-opting anything. It is petty for groups to accuse each other of stealing what are nothing more than thoughts and ideas.
There's something deeply conservative and right wing about not enjoying people who are different to you enjoying the things you enjoy. I am serious when I say this idea of "cultural appropriation" that has spread amongst so called progressives is a kind of segregation.
This is an unpopular position, but that's because in WEIRD countries, conservatism is on the rise even in progressive spheres.
The issue is not people making curry. The women in this post are wearing traditional Indian clothing and jewelry while monetizing their marriages and housework for other white Americans. They’re not appreciating the food, they’re making money off the fact they married someone who isn’t white and offering it up to the internet. Another logical fallacy. It’s telling that you took a day to respond with basically the exact same poorly thought out argument that actually, POC are conservative for not wanting white Americans to monetize off cultures that don’t belong to them.
It doesn't matter that white women dress up in Sari and make Indian food for TikTok views, because nothing is lost.
Meanwhile, "Cultural Appropriation" is usually a force for good. One of your commentators mentioned Yoga, and it's worth noting that Indian Yogic practice generally involved sitting down and meditating. Modern Yoga is built on those practices, but also includes a number of stretches and stances developed by Scandinavians. It's a true merging of cultures, and we're better off for it.
It may suit Hindutva voices to pretend that Yoga is Indian Only, and mall gym yoga classes are an affront, but these are arguments that quickly tip into nationalism.
Cultural Appropriation is a form of segregation, and as a society we are worse off because of it.
https://journaloffreeblackmoms.substack.com/cp/167079857
The line of cultural appropriation vs. appreciation has always been difficult for me to understand. From your responses/comments, it feels like you are trying to say that the line falls at monetization. The article doesn't quite feel like it expresses this...maybe you struggle to draw the line cleanly as well (it is a subjective question after all...I think?).
Is Billie dressing/talking like that because she wants to be 'cool' and it will improve her public image? Or is she doing it because she looks up to people who dress and talk like that and wants to be more like them? If Big Joe embraced her copy-cat as flattery through imitation would it be better? Would it matter less if she wasn't famous? I don't know.
Regardless, excellent article as always. Keep it up!
I feel like when trying to talk about, assess, or understand harm, it’s helpful to be specific and to approach the question with a deliberative rather than decisive mindset, especially when the harm in question is not entirely physical/material and is at least in part social, emotional, or psychological - and when the harm being discussed is being done to a group that is broader than the people actively engaged in that discussion. People who are similar and identify with one another in some ways can still have very different experiences of, perspectives on, and responses to an action - fir each person that is going to be effected by so many factors. In some cases it might be more effective/possible to participate in and further a diologue or discourse that will be ongoing than it is to make definitive judgements and determinations about what kind of things are and are not ok. Norms change and context also matters. Ideas and experiences of race, minoritization, culture, identity, and power not only vary from person to person - but also change over time and are effected by nuances of place and intersectionality. It matters who is appropriating what, in what context and in what way. All of these specifics inform that
Have you read Appropriate: A Provocation by Paisley Rekdal? It's the most nuanced & thoughtful examination of cultural appropriation that I've encountered in the many years I've been following discussions on the topic. It isn't (and doesn't pretend to be) the final word on the matter, but it productively complicates the reductive takes that tend to dominate the discussion.
https://wwnorton.com/books/9781324003588
Thank you for this recommendation and also the phrase "productively complicates," which is the vibe I bring to work most days.
I aspire to do that, too. Hope you find the book as useful as the phrase!
The white women claiming Indian food as their "niche", the irony is too much, and the way they defend themselves, just wow. Thank you for making me laugh this morning, that was funny.
My culture, if I identify by ancestors in addition to environment is this:
Native Floridian
Irish
Czech
Russian
French
Appalachian (my father's family)
Poverty- projects, trailer parks
Some of these labels/identifiers don't have much meaning to me because I was not immersed in said culture (French, Czech, Russian), I just know that my people came from those places. So is that my culture if I have no tie to it?
What do we mean when we say "culture"?
Probably, for me, the most defining group I associated with growing up was Mormons, followed by Mudicians and alcoholics. Are these my culture?
I might still identify as "culturally Mormon", but I'm about as devout as the women on Secret Lives of Mormon Wives.
I was raised in the projects. So I was immersed in "black culture". Does that make me black? Hint: I'm not. Or is the culture just the culture of Poverty?
Yes, white people have European ancestors, mostly. But many Americans (regardless of race) have no ties to their ancestors.
We are cultural mutts.
It's not necessarily a bad thing.
But I think it *might* be why we cling strongly to other cultures, looking for somewhere or something to belong to. Idk.
I could be full of shite!
I love how you tie in Materialists with Love Island and the nonchalance epidemic in your youtube!!
fall out boy reference
I wonder about this a lot. Like, I get the issue with white celebrities doing what basically feels like cultural cosplay while not mentioning sources.
But with the general population it’s less clear… like, I recently discovered I really like African wax print dresses. The patterns are amazing and the cuts are flattering on chunky girls like me. It’s definitely not ‘my culture’ though. But I am also not pretending it is… It still feels like weird territory. Like, both appreciation and appropriation are a real thing, the question is where you put the line… at financial exploitation? That makes sense. But people just trying to engage with a different culture… it’s shadier.
I wonder if Americans appropriate culture because we don't actually have one cultural identity as a country. We are a melting pot, an amalgamation of many cultures. I think this applies to white people specifically 🤔 We don't have a culture of our own, so we seek out and "perform" cultures that appeal to us. I don't know if this is good or bad, I just know we do it.
I'm not from the US, but there ARE US cultures... So many different Native American ones, African-American ones... White people brought their cultures with them and sometimes lost them but Italian-Americans seem to still have ties to their origins. WASP have a culture too: mainly religious!
Read my comment again, that is basically what I said. We have so many cultures that mix together, so we don't have one specific culture. I wasn't implying a void of culture, I used the term "amalgamation "- a mixture, a melting pot.
No need to be rude lmao and I know the word amalgamation, thank you very much!
I wonder if you also think that Americans don't have an accent? White people do have a culture of their own. If you can't see a culture it's because that's your culture.
White people do not have a culture. Whiteness is not an identity. That’s like saying “brown people” have a culture. Now, Irish-Americans have a culture. So do Swedish-, Norwegian-, French, etc. There is regional culture (Appalachian, Chicago, Boston, SoCal etc.) But “white” in and of itself is not a cultural identity. I am white and I have plenty of culture to access—raised Irish Catholic in the Rust Belt, a specific culture with its own traditions, music, social norms and even dress. If white people learned about and embraced their cultural heritage beyond “white,” they will have plenty to access without appropriating.
I meant White Americans, and they very definitely have a culture.
I didn't say we didn't have culture, I said we don't have one specific culture. Don't get so butthurt, it's just a comment. 😐
I was born in Tampa in the ghetto. I guess it's a culture of sorts.
have been reflecting about what you wrote here (the Cohen example is new to me! I didn’t know anything about this)
I’m curious if you would make a distinction between artistic work that draws on cultural traditions outside the creator’s own (as an example, let’s say the film score by Ludwig Goransson of blues for the film Sinners) and taking on another culture as one’s identity (example of a white woman wearing a bindi)
What do you make of the way young (white/European) British people/teenagers adopt black British and/or American dialect? From my observations the peak of their emulation/copycatting is mid-teens, and then it fades when they enter the workforce.
Is it much the same? Did I use too many slashes?
Congrats on finishing the novel draft!!