So many gems in here. But I find it especially distressing that people seem to think they can have a 'revolution" without any offline friends. Or without really doing anything towards it. I think we can go ahead and call this think delulu now.
Agree! It feels sometimes like "revolution" is just a vague word for people to use to fit a certain online aesthetic that they don't see as having a real meaning in the real world.
SO MUCH THIS! I saw a thread that was like "The social media endgame is..." and I was like "...making friends with your neighbors." Just, like, look up and make eye contact. It's the only way we're gonna survive out here.
as someone who is 41 and grew up online since she was 13 your blog has been a HAVEN of sanity. I cannot tell you how much i appreciate your common sense thoughts.
1. how dare you remind us of miku binder thomas jefferson 2. there is something incredibly catholic about the leftist need to self flagellate when any amount of criticism is levied at you; the need to be defensive is evangelical, but the people who prostrate themselves and cry out that they are the worthless scum of the Earth have a catholic bent to them imo (they also are seeking absolution by making those around them so uncomfortable that forgiveness is the only way to make it stop)
to those it may concern - it’s not your job to lecture or berate a fellow leftist online just because they don’t meet your standard of perfection. accept they agree with you, and move on.
reserve these conversations for the real world, where nuance can easily be expressed, where their humanity is on clear display, and where slight disagreements can easily be bridged.
I was running a network of blogs, and saw over and over again how liberal commenters were consistently the most hateful! As someone living in Seattle, raised by hippies, and super liberal, it was always so confusing to me how much HATE liberal commenters would scream at a website made for and by their own people. Also, the main site I was running was a silly wedding blog! The amount of RAGE that liberal commenters put into screaming at a nontraditional wedding blog?! It made no damn sense.
I made my peace with assuming it was easier for them to yell at us (knowing we'd always listen and affirm them) than it was to take actual action against, oh, I don't know, actual systems of oppression. But I can really see how we got to right where we are, over a decade later.
Thanks again for your amazing writing -- I LOVE THIS NEWSLETTER!!!
Thank you Ariel! That means a lot to me. The points you make are so salient and it’s scary how little things have changed since 2012! This behavior all started back then and has completely transformed culture and leftist spaces. It’s scary but I feel like this loss might be a sort of wakeup for us, we’ll see!
Yeah, I don't know if it's reassuring or horrifying that 12 years later, the same issues are still playing out. I do appreciate how some folks talk about it in the framework of "you can't use the tools of the oppressors [aka shame] to fight oppression."
“The culture” has officially been crumbling over this issue ever since the election, and boy-howdy, is it just me, or is it about damn time? God, it’s gonna be such a hard convo. Thank you for your two cents on it. I’m feeling less alone about it every day. This post rocks💚
I am a leftist, and meeting the kind of people described in this piece IRL made me decide to transfer from Sarah Lawrence College to a big state school. I was there in 2020 which was a high point of call-out culture, and I felt like I was constantly walking on eggshells. For example, someone in my class was cancelled for appropriating Wicca culture. There was a huge victim energy among the students who were almost exclusively white, wealthy, and educated in private schools. I transferred feeling very cynical and alienated by my own peers.
Dang I just googled Wicca and Wicca’s are the ones being called out for being cultural appropriators lots of the time. I got told I was privileged because I questioned the conditions of communism in the USSR under Stalin after studying abroad in Prague and hearing bad stories and reading rough history then having a communist professor glorifying the USSR I just lightly pushed back with some counterpoints from the people who lived there and dang this person was not pleased (and I don’t disagree that some of the USSR was probably fine). I mentioned that people were self-emulating and she said you’re privileged people do that all the time. I was astounded and no one pushed back at what she was saying.
Agree with so many points here but establishment democrats problem wasn’t being “woke” or too “puritanical” it was not running on kitchen sink problems !
No 100%! More specifically that bringing progressive ideals to a greater audience would be difficult via podcast or platform when a lot of the online left acts in ways that are antithetical to actual movement building
That tweet referencing shame is such a big topic of deconstruction for me as a Catholic. The moral superiority feeling I got when I was younger and first participating in leftist spaces did help me to get over some of my own shame. Helped me to realize my existence is not shameful and I'm not inherently a bad person. But it didn't heal the wound of why I felt so ashamed. The old adage of hurt people, hurt people led to me utilizing the same hurtful tactics of the Catholic Church to "convert" people to the left. (And of course that never works.) It would take a lot of reading, therapy, and physical organization experience to deconstruct from that. I also had to accept the fact that my deconstruction could take my whole life. Which in these days of instant gratification, that's a hard pill to swallow.
I hope your words can reach out to others who also have similar backgrounds. This writing, is so important to help build the bridge of nuance as I like to call it. It's tough, but the work is worth it y'all! :)
you have your finger on the pulse. also i really enjoy the recommended reads at the end of your articles, i only just recently subscribed but there’s always at least one article at the end that piques my interest.
I love so much of this, and your writing on the need to do uncomfortable things IRL has truly impacted how I run my own rural Third Space! It's just this that surprises me:
"I don’t understand how the Democratic party is beholden to the whims of people who are at best, really annoying, and at worst, actively off-putting."
I'm Canadian, but from here I saw no indication the Democratic party felt beholden to these folks at all? They ran a (barely) moderate Republican campaign!
As we are about to fight off our own conservative government up here next election, I really don't want the idea to take hold that any party proposing a single actual progressive policy is somehow catering to the terminally online.
The larger problem is conflating internet-based anonymous commenter vibes with official, real-world actions and effects.
This piece, the quotes in it and the comments on it exemplify this tendency to ignore the actual communications from actual people and establishments ("The Democrats lost the election because they didn't campaign on [thing they absolutely did campaign on but you just didn't notice because you weren't paying attention]") and substitute in their place engagement-bait hot takes by anonymous twitter posters who may or may not be real humans (see: basically all the trash cited as evidence in this article).
The author actually recognizes this issue and then falls right into the same trap. In one paragraph it's "I want to hear more from people on the front lines and less from people behind a screen," and then you blink and we're on to detailed reporting about some strangers arguing over a seven-second video where a random person said "I hate polyamorous people." Focus!!
It's not just you, for sure - take the tiktok guy you quote in the article. A little later on in that video he says, roughly, the Democrats just haven't proposed any policies that would meaningfully make people's lives better. That's obviously not true and could be disproven almost instantaneously.
So why does he believe it? Because he's listened to the actual words that came out of Kamala Harris's mouth and used them to form an opinion of the Democratic Party based on the stated policy priorities of its de facto leader? Of course not, nobody does that. It's all just regurgitating sound bites from some tweet we scrolled past featuring a clip of a talking head pundit we'd never heard of before. And that's straight fucking poison.
lol you got me with this one… I’ve been enjoying substack’s internet sociologists ever since I deleted my social media apps because I can’t see for myself all the time anymore but still like to know what going on. It might just be my feed but there is quite a lot of internet sociologists on here. I like this writer. I like much of the writers but I start to see that they’re writing so much and posting so much that they’re doing exactly what your comment points out. Not telling us what they’re doing out irl and reporting back, just more complaining and observing on the shit show that is the web. I’m no better but I do see this from our writers who do seem preoccupied with political action and morals and the lack of internet users doing anything.
I'm happy to die on this hill, starting out by stating Joe rogan, Theo von and especially Logan Paul as alt right is confusing, what part of them is alt right? I haven't seen one piece of content from either of them that suggests this.
How do you come to this decision of thinking they are so? genuinely curious to find out why you believe this.
I don’t think they’re explicitly so but the types of alpha male, all in in yourself, white male grievance content I’ve seen is sort of connected- happy to change to just right, since I don’t want to paint with too broad a brush!
So many gems in here. But I find it especially distressing that people seem to think they can have a 'revolution" without any offline friends. Or without really doing anything towards it. I think we can go ahead and call this think delulu now.
Agree! It feels sometimes like "revolution" is just a vague word for people to use to fit a certain online aesthetic that they don't see as having a real meaning in the real world.
Oh for sure. This is all personal branding for a lot of people.
SO MUCH THIS! I saw a thread that was like "The social media endgame is..." and I was like "...making friends with your neighbors." Just, like, look up and make eye contact. It's the only way we're gonna survive out here.
as someone who is 41 and grew up online since she was 13 your blog has been a HAVEN of sanity. I cannot tell you how much i appreciate your common sense thoughts.
1. how dare you remind us of miku binder thomas jefferson 2. there is something incredibly catholic about the leftist need to self flagellate when any amount of criticism is levied at you; the need to be defensive is evangelical, but the people who prostrate themselves and cry out that they are the worthless scum of the Earth have a catholic bent to them imo (they also are seeking absolution by making those around them so uncomfortable that forgiveness is the only way to make it stop)
to those it may concern - it’s not your job to lecture or berate a fellow leftist online just because they don’t meet your standard of perfection. accept they agree with you, and move on.
reserve these conversations for the real world, where nuance can easily be expressed, where their humanity is on clear display, and where slight disagreements can easily be bridged.
it is not your job to change the mind of another
I wish I could “like” this post multiple times. Thanks for putting into words a lot of things I, another leftist!—has been feeling for years.
THIS IS SO GOOD. Thank you for writing it. Back in 2012, before the term "call-out culture" existed, I wrote an article for The Guardian about what I called then "liberal bullying": https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/oct/18/online-bullying-ugly-sport-liberal-commenters
I was running a network of blogs, and saw over and over again how liberal commenters were consistently the most hateful! As someone living in Seattle, raised by hippies, and super liberal, it was always so confusing to me how much HATE liberal commenters would scream at a website made for and by their own people. Also, the main site I was running was a silly wedding blog! The amount of RAGE that liberal commenters put into screaming at a nontraditional wedding blog?! It made no damn sense.
I made my peace with assuming it was easier for them to yell at us (knowing we'd always listen and affirm them) than it was to take actual action against, oh, I don't know, actual systems of oppression. But I can really see how we got to right where we are, over a decade later.
Thanks again for your amazing writing -- I LOVE THIS NEWSLETTER!!!
Thank you Ariel! That means a lot to me. The points you make are so salient and it’s scary how little things have changed since 2012! This behavior all started back then and has completely transformed culture and leftist spaces. It’s scary but I feel like this loss might be a sort of wakeup for us, we’ll see!
Yeah, I don't know if it's reassuring or horrifying that 12 years later, the same issues are still playing out. I do appreciate how some folks talk about it in the framework of "you can't use the tools of the oppressors [aka shame] to fight oppression."
Killing it. We're gonna need a book of these soon enough
I so look forward to reading these pieces. It always feels like the mist has cleared.
Thank you!
“The culture” has officially been crumbling over this issue ever since the election, and boy-howdy, is it just me, or is it about damn time? God, it’s gonna be such a hard convo. Thank you for your two cents on it. I’m feeling less alone about it every day. This post rocks💚
I am a leftist, and meeting the kind of people described in this piece IRL made me decide to transfer from Sarah Lawrence College to a big state school. I was there in 2020 which was a high point of call-out culture, and I felt like I was constantly walking on eggshells. For example, someone in my class was cancelled for appropriating Wicca culture. There was a huge victim energy among the students who were almost exclusively white, wealthy, and educated in private schools. I transferred feeling very cynical and alienated by my own peers.
Dang I just googled Wicca and Wicca’s are the ones being called out for being cultural appropriators lots of the time. I got told I was privileged because I questioned the conditions of communism in the USSR under Stalin after studying abroad in Prague and hearing bad stories and reading rough history then having a communist professor glorifying the USSR I just lightly pushed back with some counterpoints from the people who lived there and dang this person was not pleased (and I don’t disagree that some of the USSR was probably fine). I mentioned that people were self-emulating and she said you’re privileged people do that all the time. I was astounded and no one pushed back at what she was saying.
Agree with so many points here but establishment democrats problem wasn’t being “woke” or too “puritanical” it was not running on kitchen sink problems !
No 100%! More specifically that bringing progressive ideals to a greater audience would be difficult via podcast or platform when a lot of the online left acts in ways that are antithetical to actual movement building
That tweet referencing shame is such a big topic of deconstruction for me as a Catholic. The moral superiority feeling I got when I was younger and first participating in leftist spaces did help me to get over some of my own shame. Helped me to realize my existence is not shameful and I'm not inherently a bad person. But it didn't heal the wound of why I felt so ashamed. The old adage of hurt people, hurt people led to me utilizing the same hurtful tactics of the Catholic Church to "convert" people to the left. (And of course that never works.) It would take a lot of reading, therapy, and physical organization experience to deconstruct from that. I also had to accept the fact that my deconstruction could take my whole life. Which in these days of instant gratification, that's a hard pill to swallow.
I hope your words can reach out to others who also have similar backgrounds. This writing, is so important to help build the bridge of nuance as I like to call it. It's tough, but the work is worth it y'all! :)
you have your finger on the pulse. also i really enjoy the recommended reads at the end of your articles, i only just recently subscribed but there’s always at least one article at the end that piques my interest.
I love so much of this, and your writing on the need to do uncomfortable things IRL has truly impacted how I run my own rural Third Space! It's just this that surprises me:
"I don’t understand how the Democratic party is beholden to the whims of people who are at best, really annoying, and at worst, actively off-putting."
I'm Canadian, but from here I saw no indication the Democratic party felt beholden to these folks at all? They ran a (barely) moderate Republican campaign!
As we are about to fight off our own conservative government up here next election, I really don't want the idea to take hold that any party proposing a single actual progressive policy is somehow catering to the terminally online.
The larger problem is conflating internet-based anonymous commenter vibes with official, real-world actions and effects.
This piece, the quotes in it and the comments on it exemplify this tendency to ignore the actual communications from actual people and establishments ("The Democrats lost the election because they didn't campaign on [thing they absolutely did campaign on but you just didn't notice because you weren't paying attention]") and substitute in their place engagement-bait hot takes by anonymous twitter posters who may or may not be real humans (see: basically all the trash cited as evidence in this article).
The author actually recognizes this issue and then falls right into the same trap. In one paragraph it's "I want to hear more from people on the front lines and less from people behind a screen," and then you blink and we're on to detailed reporting about some strangers arguing over a seven-second video where a random person said "I hate polyamorous people." Focus!!
Ok you clocked me but to be fair this post is explicitly about the internet and said anonymous commenter vibes!
It's not just you, for sure - take the tiktok guy you quote in the article. A little later on in that video he says, roughly, the Democrats just haven't proposed any policies that would meaningfully make people's lives better. That's obviously not true and could be disproven almost instantaneously.
So why does he believe it? Because he's listened to the actual words that came out of Kamala Harris's mouth and used them to form an opinion of the Democratic Party based on the stated policy priorities of its de facto leader? Of course not, nobody does that. It's all just regurgitating sound bites from some tweet we scrolled past featuring a clip of a talking head pundit we'd never heard of before. And that's straight fucking poison.
lol you got me with this one… I’ve been enjoying substack’s internet sociologists ever since I deleted my social media apps because I can’t see for myself all the time anymore but still like to know what going on. It might just be my feed but there is quite a lot of internet sociologists on here. I like this writer. I like much of the writers but I start to see that they’re writing so much and posting so much that they’re doing exactly what your comment points out. Not telling us what they’re doing out irl and reporting back, just more complaining and observing on the shit show that is the web. I’m no better but I do see this from our writers who do seem preoccupied with political action and morals and the lack of internet users doing anything.
I'm happy to die on this hill, starting out by stating Joe rogan, Theo von and especially Logan Paul as alt right is confusing, what part of them is alt right? I haven't seen one piece of content from either of them that suggests this.
How do you come to this decision of thinking they are so? genuinely curious to find out why you believe this.
other than that great piece of writing :)
I don’t think they’re explicitly so but the types of alpha male, all in in yourself, white male grievance content I’ve seen is sort of connected- happy to change to just right, since I don’t want to paint with too broad a brush!